Comments on: On the Nature of Time: Implications for Advanced Intelligence and SETI http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/ Stay Curious. Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:04:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU hourly 1 By: Roger http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2443 Roger Fri, 15 Aug 2008 03:11:21 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2443 Communication speed mismatches will be a big challenge. Consider our actions are controlled by teh amount of energy we receive. If something in the cold of space communicates very slowly by our standards it would as you state create a built in problem for SETI. Does that built in limitation bind us to talking only with "our kind" of life? Once life passes into the cyborg age many of these limitations will be gone. Well past our life times though. The ability to adjust your thinking speed based on need should also enable extreme life times at that point. Spooky action at a distance is the best FLT method of communication possible. No light speed limitations. Imagine the challenge of finding a single linked atom (Wrong term I think it is a ion but I could be way off here) for use in communication. The secret to talking with SETI could be anywhere. How can some thing that small be made to be found? Imagine a very small craft made to convey this. It wouldn't take much power to move some thing that small. How could it make itself noticeable? Where would a SETI put this into a solar system? Just few ideas. Its fun to play thought games with it though. Communication speed mismatches will be a big challenge. Consider our actions are controlled by teh amount of energy we receive.
If something in the cold of space communicates very slowly by our standards it would as you state create a built in problem for SETI.
Does that built in limitation bind us to talking only with “our kind” of life?

Once life passes into the cyborg age many of these limitations will be gone. Well past our life times though. The ability to adjust your thinking speed based on need should also enable extreme life times at that point.

Spooky action at a distance is the best FLT method of communication possible. No light speed limitations. Imagine the challenge of finding a single linked atom (Wrong term I think it is a ion but I could be way off here) for use in communication. The secret to talking with SETI could be anywhere. How can some thing that small be made to be found? Imagine a very small craft made to convey this. It wouldn’t take much power to move some thing that small. How could it make itself noticeable? Where would a SETI put this into a solar system?
Just few ideas. Its fun to play thought games with it though.

]]> By: Order in the Universe and Pattern Recognition « Michael Graham Richard http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2413 Order in the Universe and Pattern Recognition « Michael Graham Richard Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:18:12 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2413 [...] with regard to order is anything like ours. This could be one more thing, along with a possible difference in subjective time and many others, that could make communication [...] [...] with regard to order is anything like ours. This could be one more thing, along with a possible difference in subjective time and many others, that could make communication [...]

]]> By: Roger http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2373 Roger Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:12:42 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2373 A few questions 1) Have we considered how IF we get a signal how do we interperate when it was sent? How can we find a time frame reference within the data? How would we communicate the same data? 2) Dumb idea (on my part!). If the spooky action at a distance function works and it has been verified why aren't we looking for signaling using that medium? How could we find a buckyball that keeps an active linked atom within itself? How would a SETI make this little item easily findable? Just a couple of dumb questions. A few questions
1) Have we considered how IF we get a signal how do we interperate when it was sent? How can we find a time frame reference within the data? How would we communicate the same data?

2) Dumb idea (on my part!). If the spooky action at a distance function works and it has been verified why aren’t we looking for signaling using that medium? How could we find a buckyball that keeps an active linked atom within itself? How would a SETI make this little item easily findable?

Just a couple of dumb questions.

]]> By: Virtual Reality Could Explain the Fermi Paradox « Michael Graham Richard http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2233 Virtual Reality Could Explain the Fermi Paradox « Michael Graham Richard Fri, 09 May 2008 17:00:06 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2233 [...] I mentioned before, they could also think much faster, subjectively pushing back the heat death of the universe (while at the same time making [...] [...] I mentioned before, they could also think much faster, subjectively pushing back the heat death of the universe (while at the same time making [...]

]]> By: Steve http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2191 Steve Tue, 22 Apr 2008 06:40:43 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2191 Found it! Pictures Don't Lie, by Katherine MacLean: http://www.magicdragon.com/EmeraldCity/extraterrestrials/alien.html#maclean A summary. Found it! Pictures Don’t Lie, by Katherine MacLean:

http://www.magicdragon.com/EmeraldCity/extraterrestrials/alien.html#maclean

A summary.

]]> By: Steve http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2190 Steve Tue, 22 Apr 2008 06:35:17 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2190 There's a fairly frequently anthologised science fiction story about first contact with an alien ship: we realise that they're sending all their messages as high-speed bursts for some reason of efficiency, so we send our messages sped up also. Eventually they land on Earth, but we can't see their ship: there is a series of messages from them asking if they've been tricked: our world is huge, murky and high-gravity, and the field they're in is full of blob creatures. In fact, the aliens are microscopic, and live at super-high speeds naturally. Secondly, I think George Dvorsky posted something critical of a Singularitarian a while back - they'd made a comment that to post-singularity beings, our speech would be as tedious and content-poor as the mooing of cows. There’s a fairly frequently anthologised science fiction story about first contact with an alien ship: we realise that they’re sending all their messages as high-speed bursts for some reason of efficiency, so we send our messages sped up also. Eventually they land on Earth, but we can’t see their ship: there is a series of messages from them asking if they’ve been tricked: our world is huge, murky and high-gravity, and the field they’re in is full of blob creatures. In fact, the aliens are microscopic, and live at super-high speeds naturally.

Secondly, I think George Dvorsky posted something critical of a Singularitarian a while back - they’d made a comment that to post-singularity beings, our speech would be as tedious and content-poor as the mooing of cows.

]]> By: The Bomb http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2170 The Bomb Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:59:32 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2170 Mr. Richard, these same questions of time come up all the time over at Ask Miss Priss dot com. Indeed, it's almost uncanny (all the more so in light of her gigantic antipathy for what you and she both call "treehuggers"). According to Priss, the main thing to realize about time is that it is, in her words, "an epistemological concept, not metaphysical" -- by which she means: time doesn't exist independently of a conceptual brain. One of her more recent Q & A's on the subject is worth reproducing here, if you'll permit: <em>March 26th, 2008 Dear Miss Priss: Could there be time travelers from the future amongst us and if so, does that mean a time machine has already been invented? Dear anonymous: Your question is a fascinating one. Actually, it reminds me of a similar query people used to put to me all the time: “Do we have a fungus among us?” I’ll forgo this latter one (for now), but the answer to your question is no; there could not be time travelers from the future amongst us. The reason this is so is that time doesn’t actually exist apart from man. In a literal sense, there is no such thing as “the future.” The future simply isn’t there. (As Gertrude Stein once said of Oakland, CA: “There is no there there.”) What exists is motion; what also exists are entities in motion. Time, by definition, is "the measurement of movement." Thus time is an epistemological word, not metaphysical. It refers to quantification. The universe has been described as “eternal in the literal sense: non-temporal; out-of-time.” What this means is that time doesn’t exist independently of man. Time, therefore, like calculus, is only a system of measurement. What does it measure? It measures motion, such as planetary revolutions around the sun. There’s a venerable old saying, with which I happen to (more or less) agree: “It’s not the size of the rise that satisfies; it’s the motion of the ocean that creates the best commotion.” What this beautiful and time-tested apothegm means to me is that in the absence of human beings, there’s no size or space; there’s no order, no disorder, no math, no future, no past, no present, no alpha or omega, no treehuggers, and no God-awful English accents. There’s only the motion of the ocean. If, however, there were time travelers from the future amongst us, your surmise would indeed be correct: a time machine would have already been invented. When? “Who knows where the wind goes when it is calm?” Said Voltaire.</em> From Ask Miss Priss dot com. Mr. Richard, these same questions of time come up all the time over at Ask Miss Priss dot com. Indeed, it’s almost uncanny (all the more so in light of her gigantic antipathy for what you and she both call “treehuggers”). According to Priss, the main thing to realize about time is that it is, in her words, “an epistemological concept, not metaphysical” — by which she means: time doesn’t exist independently of a conceptual brain. One of her more recent Q & A’s on the subject is worth reproducing here, if you’ll permit:

March 26th, 2008

Dear Miss Priss: Could there be time travelers from the future amongst us and if so, does that mean a time machine has already been invented?

Dear anonymous: Your question is a fascinating one. Actually, it reminds me of a similar query people used to put to me all the time: “Do we have a fungus among us?” I’ll forgo this latter one (for now), but the answer to your question is no; there could not be time travelers from the future amongst us. The reason this is so is that time doesn’t actually exist apart from man. In a literal sense, there is no such thing as “the future.” The future simply isn’t there. (As Gertrude Stein once said of Oakland, CA: “There is no there there.”) What exists is motion; what also exists are entities in motion. Time, by definition, is “the measurement of movement.” Thus time is an epistemological word, not metaphysical. It refers to quantification. The universe has been described as “eternal in the literal sense: non-temporal; out-of-time.” What this means is that time doesn’t exist independently of man. Time, therefore, like calculus, is only a system of measurement. What does it measure? It measures motion, such as planetary revolutions around the sun. There’s a venerable old saying, with which I happen to (more or less) agree: “It’s not the size of the rise that satisfies; it’s the motion of the ocean that creates the best commotion.” What this beautiful and time-tested apothegm means to me is that in the absence of human beings, there’s no size or space; there’s no order, no disorder, no math, no future, no past, no present, no alpha or omega, no treehuggers, and no God-awful English accents. There’s only the motion of the ocean. If, however, there were time travelers from the future amongst us, your surmise would indeed be correct: a time machine would have already been invented. When? “Who knows where the wind goes when it is calm?”

Said Voltaire.

From Ask Miss Priss dot com.

]]> By: ryan http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2164 ryan Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:43:17 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2164 Ancient life on Earth used different materials to do the work of life. Both information storing molecules and enzymes and other cell machinery were made out of what we now call RNA (as opposed to DNA and amino acids). RNA enzymes are studied today by a small number of curious scientists. Basically everything is the same. The active site on both RNA and amino acid enzymes will have the same shape, the machinery will take the same geomoectric conformations, and perform the same reactions on the same molecules. Almost all of the basic life proceses, the crebs cycle for example, existed in the ancient times and ran with RNA enzymes. The difference between RNA and amino acid enzymes is the amino acid enzyme will perform the reaction about 1000 times as fast. So, there could be something to your theory. There does exist a form of life (well, used to be here on Earth, and the universe is a big place..) that would interpret our actions as happening 1000 times too fast to comprehend. ' So perhaps there are higher life forms in the same predicament. Ancient life on Earth used different materials to do the work of life. Both information storing molecules and enzymes and other cell machinery were made out of what we now call RNA (as opposed to DNA and amino acids). RNA enzymes are studied today by a small number of curious scientists. Basically everything is the same. The active site on both RNA and amino acid enzymes will have the same shape, the machinery will take the same geomoectric conformations, and perform the same reactions on the same molecules. Almost all of the basic life proceses, the crebs cycle for example, existed in the ancient times and ran with RNA enzymes. The difference between RNA and amino acid enzymes is the amino acid enzyme will perform the reaction about 1000 times as fast. So, there could be something to your theory. There does exist a form of life (well, used to be here on Earth, and the universe is a big place..) that would interpret our actions as happening 1000 times too fast to comprehend. ‘
So perhaps there are higher life forms in the same predicament.

]]> By: vidude http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2163 vidude Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:15:42 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2163 "Kirk had a similar problem in one of those old Star Trek episodes. His solution was to sleep with the woman in the tin-foil bikini." I though sleeping with the woman in the tin-foil bikini was Kirk's solution to every problem. “Kirk had a similar problem in one of those old Star Trek episodes. His solution was to sleep with the woman in the tin-foil bikini.”

I though sleeping with the woman in the tin-foil bikini was Kirk’s solution to every problem.

]]> By: mvbigflea http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2162 mvbigflea Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:06:02 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2162 How can there be a limit to how fast (or slow) something can happens? Because time is measured in numerical units, and numbers are infinite, one can always add (or subtract) from any given theoretical low (or high). How can there be a limit to how fast (or slow) something can happens? Because time is measured in numerical units, and numbers are infinite, one can always add (or subtract) from any given theoretical low (or high).

]]> By: J.R. Mooneyham http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2161 J.R. Mooneyham Sun, 13 Apr 2008 18:39:10 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2161 Those mentioning the Planck time limits are correct (as far as it goes) as those seem to define the smallest discrete instants which can exist under the usual conditions present in our universe. That is, no event can take place faster than a single unit of Plancktime. Plancktime and Planckspace is discussed at http://www.jrmooneyham.com/limt.html In regards to the ultimate speed of thought among advanced lifeforms-- the fastest would likely be among virtual intelligences living in a software realm. In theory, they could process info very near the speed of light-- though keep in mind any significant distances between essential nodes would have a noticeable slowing effect on the process. So the more physically compact and tiny the spatial dimensions were of such an entity, the closer to optimum speed it could operate. But along with shrinkage comes possible waste heat problems too...just as we see with our primitive computing hardware of today. Exacting reverse calculations have been shown to help alleviate such processing liabilities-- but then you lose at least 50% of your potential maximum pace as well. Doh! Of course, it's also true there may be a way to 'cheat' in terms of processing speed. That is, it may be possible to 'outsource' some processing work to other universes entirely-- or in effect, to use a single Plancktime unit across a trillion trillion parallel universes at the same time. Yikes! This trick would possibly be related to the 'quantum computing' concept researchers are working on today-- and might even be part of the solution to the mystery regarding how life itself came into being, and often manages to survive even the worst calamities via accelerated evolution. That is, the evolutionary process itself is 'outsourced' by DNA molecules to other universes to find a way to overcome adversity, when the circumstances become too extreme. References regarding this can be found near the bottom of the page http://www.jrmooneyham.com/warp.html I maintain a speculative future history timeline at http://www.jrmooneyham.com/future_history_timeline.html which includes ideas about a possible 'super-fast' race as discussed here, which I named the 'Sol' after their originating solar system (ours). They mostly live in a virtual realm I call 'Fance'. Details can be seen at http://www.jrmooneyham.com/solcv.html I also delve into the possibilities of super-powered alien civilizations in pages which begin at http://www.jrmooneyham.com/ctcta.html Specifically, beginning with "13. The growing lure of inner space: Here the challenge will become one of cheap, fast, and powerful fantasy versus a slow, expensive, and difficult reality" at http://www.jrmooneyham.com/ctctc.html#section7 I cover the widening chasm of capabilities and experience which could develop between physical and non-physical beings. Lastly, I did all this research to support the creation of a science fiction novel incorporating many of these elements, titled 'The Chance of a Realtime', which can be found at http://www.jmooneyham.com/chance-realtime-toc.html As many of the non-novel pages include a wealth of third party research citations, there's lots there for anyone interested in this topic to explore. -- J.R. Mooneyham Those mentioning the Planck time limits are correct (as far as it goes) as those seem to define the smallest discrete instants which can exist under the usual conditions present in our universe. That is, no event can take place faster than a single unit of Plancktime.

Plancktime and Planckspace is discussed at
http://www.jrmooneyham.com/limt.html

In regards to the ultimate speed of thought among advanced lifeforms– the fastest would likely be among virtual intelligences living in a software realm. In theory, they could process info very near the speed of light– though keep in mind any significant distances between essential nodes would have a noticeable slowing effect on the process. So the more physically compact and tiny the spatial dimensions were of such an entity, the closer to optimum speed it could operate. But along with shrinkage comes possible waste heat problems too…just as we see with our primitive computing hardware of today. Exacting reverse calculations have been shown to help alleviate such processing liabilities– but then you lose at least 50% of your potential maximum pace as well. Doh!

Of course, it’s also true there may be a way to ‘cheat’ in terms of processing speed. That is, it may be possible to ‘outsource’ some processing work to other universes entirely– or in effect, to use a single Plancktime unit across a trillion trillion parallel universes at the same time. Yikes! This trick would possibly be related to the ‘quantum computing’ concept researchers are working on today– and might even be part of the solution to the mystery regarding how life itself came into being, and often manages to survive even the worst calamities via accelerated evolution. That is, the evolutionary process itself is ‘outsourced’ by DNA molecules to other universes to find a way to overcome adversity, when the circumstances become too extreme.

References regarding this can be found near the bottom of the page http://www.jrmooneyham.com/warp.html

I maintain a speculative future history timeline at http://www.jrmooneyham.com/future_history_timeline.html which includes ideas about a possible ’super-fast’ race as discussed here, which I named the ‘Sol’ after their originating solar system (ours). They mostly live in a virtual realm I call ‘Fance’. Details can be seen at http://www.jrmooneyham.com/solcv.html

I also delve into the possibilities of super-powered alien civilizations in pages which begin at http://www.jrmooneyham.com/ctcta.html

Specifically, beginning with “13. The growing lure of inner space: Here the challenge will become one of cheap, fast, and powerful fantasy versus a slow, expensive, and difficult reality” at http://www.jrmooneyham.com/ctctc.html#section7 I cover the widening chasm of capabilities and experience which could develop between physical and non-physical beings.

Lastly, I did all this research to support the creation of a science fiction novel incorporating many of these elements, titled ‘The Chance of a Realtime’, which can be found at http://www.jmooneyham.com/chance-realtime-toc.html

As many of the non-novel pages include a wealth of third party research citations, there’s lots there for anyone interested in this topic to explore.

– J.R. Mooneyham

]]> By: Dustin Parsons http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2160 Dustin Parsons Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:36:30 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2160 Interesting idea, I didn't even consider the generations (or iterations) of evolutionary change between the time it would take us to respond, even if it was just one sentence. Imagine a whole conversation! I read an article recently about how it's most likely that any sentient being we might encounter will be robotic. This makes sense when you look at the path human evolution is taking. We are already replacing our biological body parts with mechanical ones and in the near future just about everyone will be a cyborg. The transformation to a completely robotic form will happen soon after that. Interesting idea, I didn’t even consider the generations (or iterations) of evolutionary change between the time it would take us to respond, even if it was just one sentence. Imagine a whole conversation!

I read an article recently about how it’s most likely that any sentient being we might encounter will be robotic. This makes sense when you look at the path human evolution is taking. We are already replacing our biological body parts with mechanical ones and in the near future just about everyone will be a cyborg. The transformation to a completely robotic form will happen soon after that.

]]> By: M.Koppenberg http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2159 M.Koppenberg Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:04:44 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2159 Excellent insight into this matter. Eloquently expressed as well. Thank you. I imagine Time is shaped like a body of water, i.e. it has waves, and some waves will overtake other waves. It certainly is not linear or constant. If you follow the website link, you will see what I mean. Excellent insight into this matter. Eloquently expressed as well.
Thank you.
I imagine Time is shaped like a body of water, i.e. it has waves, and some waves will overtake other waves. It certainly is not linear or constant.
If you follow the website link, you will see what I mean.

]]> By: Anders http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2158 Anders Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:00:02 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2158 Interesting idea. Brings another question up: when is something intelligent and when would you be able to communicate with it? I'm one of those guys who see the earth as a living organism because it follows a pattern based on chemical and physical laws just like ourselves. I somehow see the earth as having the IQ of a plant. Studies show that some plants communicate as well through their roots. So even though they communicate you cannot have a conversation with them because our "protocols" aren't the same. If an alien species wanted to communicate with us, they could probably mimic our communication to some degree as we may be able to mimic plants communication patterns, but they wouldn't be able to have a conversation with us about what they had in mind if it is something that are completely out of our world. Interesting idea. Brings another question up: when is something intelligent and when would you be able to communicate with it?
I’m one of those guys who see the earth as a living organism because it follows a pattern based on chemical and physical laws just like ourselves. I somehow see the earth as having the IQ of a plant. Studies show that some plants communicate as well through their roots. So even though they communicate you cannot have a conversation with them because our “protocols” aren’t the same.
If an alien species wanted to communicate with us, they could probably mimic our communication to some degree as we may be able to mimic plants communication patterns, but they wouldn’t be able to have a conversation with us about what they had in mind if it is something that are completely out of our world.

]]> By: VicinSea http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2157 VicinSea Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:54:09 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2157 There is another inherent time related problem concerning humans contacting other intelligent beings-- Humans have developed over the last 50,000 years. Relative to the 170,000,000 years that higher animals have lived on this planet, humans are late-comers to the party. It is not unthinkable to ponder the fate of the dinosaurs. The possibility that they were on track to be the "Dominate Intelligent Species" is very real. But for a stroke of galactic bad luck, it is easy to consider they they would have been building a civilization and reaching for the stars a hundred million years ago. A Hundred Million years later, we are still at the start of our evolutionary process. It is possible that because we are so late in developing, that other intelligent species have simply out paced us and moved so far forward in their own evolution that they would not recognize the struggling birth pains of our civilization anymore than we recognize algae as one of our forefathers. There is another inherent time related problem concerning humans contacting other intelligent beings– Humans have developed over the last 50,000 years. Relative to the 170,000,000 years that higher animals have lived on this planet, humans are late-comers to the party. It is not unthinkable to ponder the fate of the dinosaurs. The possibility that they were on track to be the “Dominate Intelligent Species” is very real. But for a stroke of galactic bad luck, it is easy to consider they they would have been building a civilization and reaching for the stars a hundred million years ago.

A Hundred Million years later, we are still at the start of our evolutionary process. It is possible that because we are so late in developing, that other intelligent species have simply out paced us and moved so far forward in their own evolution that they would not recognize the struggling birth pains of our civilization anymore than we recognize algae as one of our forefathers.

]]> By: Ed http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2156 Ed Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:48:40 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2156 Go read Diaspora by Greg Egan. It deals directly with post-humans who live in software and run at speeds radically faster than flesh-based humans, and the problem of communication and mistrust between the two. As for the smallest possible time, it was long speculated that the Planck time is the smallest. But that result is now in doubt. Go read Diaspora by Greg Egan. It deals directly with post-humans who live in software and run at speeds radically faster than flesh-based humans, and the problem of communication and mistrust between the two.

As for the smallest possible time, it was long speculated that the Planck time is the smallest. But that result is now in doubt.

]]> By: rrrroooooocccccckkkkk http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2155 rrrroooooocccccckkkkk Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:46:16 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2155 iiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttt tttttttooooooooookkkkkkk mmmmeeeeeeeeeee ssssssooooooooo llllloooooonnnnnnggggggg tttttoooooo rrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaaddddd ttthhhhaaaaatttt bbbbbbbuuuuttttt iiiitttttt wwwwwaaaaasssss wwwwoooorrrrtttthhhhhh iiiiitttttt!!!!!!! iiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttt tttttttooooooooookkkkkkk mmmmeeeeeeeeeee ssssssooooooooo llllloooooonnnnnnggggggg tttttoooooo rrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaaddddd ttthhhhaaaaatttt bbbbbbbuuuuttttt iiiitttttt wwwwwaaaaasssss wwwwoooorrrrtttthhhhhh iiiiitttttt!!!!!!!

]]> By: Craig http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2154 Craig Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:24:32 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2154 This sort of communication between species who experience time at different rates is a key part of Iain M. Banks' "The Algebraist", in which a member of a "quick" species (a human) communicates with members of a "slow" species (the Dwellers). The Dwellers live for millions of years, in a society billions of years old. The attitudes of each of these species toward the other are also explored, as well as conflict and cultural differences. This sort of communication between species who experience time at different rates is a key part of Iain M. Banks’ “The Algebraist”, in which a member of a “quick” species (a human) communicates with members of a “slow” species (the Dwellers). The Dwellers live for millions of years, in a society billions of years old. The attitudes of each of these species toward the other are also explored, as well as conflict and cultural differences.

]]> By: Wayne Sheppard http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2153 Wayne Sheppard Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:01:13 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2153 There was a great SF story that explored this concept. Dragon's Egg By Robert L. Forward There was a great SF story that explored this concept.
Dragon’s Egg By Robert L. Forward

]]> By: Ed Snible http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2152 Ed Snible Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:53:25 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2152 A science fiction novel dealing with this concept is "Dragon's Egg" by Robert L. Forward. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_Egg A science fiction novel dealing with this concept is “Dragon’s Egg” by Robert L. Forward. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon’s_Egg

]]> By: Alan Carter http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2150 Alan Carter Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:15:32 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2150 Two SF novels you may enjoy: Robert L. Forward's "Dragon's Egg" describes a visit to a neutron star where the life forms are made of degenerate matter, and chemistry happens by neutron exchange instead of electron exchange. A 70 kg alien is about the size of a sesame seed, and a human equivalent lifetime takes 15 minutes. Forward makes successful communication plausible. Charles Sheffield's "Between the Strokes of Night" is a little weirder and involves the discovery of stable but very slow moving physiological states of humans at low temperatures. Sheffield's characters have more comms problems than Forward's do. Two SF novels you may enjoy: Robert L. Forward’s “Dragon’s Egg” describes a visit to a neutron star where the life forms are made of degenerate matter, and chemistry happens by neutron exchange instead of electron exchange. A 70 kg alien is about the size of a sesame seed, and a human equivalent lifetime takes 15 minutes. Forward makes successful communication plausible.

Charles Sheffield’s “Between the Strokes of Night” is a little weirder and involves the discovery of stable but very slow moving physiological states of humans at low temperatures. Sheffield’s characters have more comms problems than Forward’s do.

]]> By: kaiise http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2149 kaiise Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:30:10 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2149 hmm interesting half question but ultimately you explore nothing. aren't you patient? would a game off chess by snail mail be abhorrent to you now you have real time internet play? if our real time is glacial then it would only be percuived as annoying unless it also meant communication limited by their mortality -- that their lifespans and memories would be too fleeting also unlikely the smallest unit of time is inverse to the planck constant the shortest interval with which the smallest event can happen. there is no smaller unit theoretically. although i am a few years out of date and no long re intersted in physics hmm interesting half question but ultimately you explore nothing.

aren’t you patient? would a game off chess by snail mail be abhorrent to you now you have real time internet play?
if our real time is glacial then it would only be percuived as annoying unless it also meant communication limited by their mortality — that their lifespans and memories would be too fleeting also
unlikely

the smallest unit of time is inverse to the planck constant the shortest interval with which the smallest event can happen. there is no smaller unit theoretically. although i am a few years out of date and no long re intersted in physics

]]> By: Carl Johan http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2148 Carl Johan Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:26:25 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2148 hey.. very interesting. this must somehow be related to the relativity theory. It made me think of the amount of information able to be consumed in a period of time. When we get scared or somehow need to "step up and save the day", at least I experience great focus or concentration and sense of time comletely change. Also, i think that when talking about intelligence, there is no intelligence without purpose. why would there. its hard for me to explain, but it would explain why we get bored hehe... hey.. very interesting.

this must somehow be related to the relativity theory.

It made me think of the amount of information able to be consumed in a period of time. When we get scared or somehow need to “step up and save the day”, at least I experience great focus or concentration and sense of time comletely change.

Also, i think that when talking about intelligence, there is no intelligence without purpose. why would there. its hard for me to explain, but it would explain why we get bored hehe…

]]> By: mark http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2147 mark Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:49:22 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2147 I think it is helpful to be agnostic about time: http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/in-no-time I think it is helpful to be agnostic about time:

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/in-no-time

]]> By: Hosein http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2146 Hosein Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:16:09 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2146 Watch this to get a better idea of how it looks like from "their" point of view; http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2966542393735208484 Watch this to get a better idea of how it looks like from “their” point of view;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2966542393735208484

]]> By: grey http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2145 grey Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:05:01 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2145 good points, but even within biological species there are huge differences in perceived time. An elephant cannot even 'see' things that move too fast, while insects are able to make multiple observations, calculations, and adjustments to their flight patters before we can see where they are going. and not only is our perception of time possibly only one part of a much larger spectrum, so might our scale. what if quarks were made up of super-clusters of smaller galaxies? if there were life on any planets in any of those galaxies, there would certainly be no way to communicate, much less detect each others' presence. good points, but even within biological species there are huge differences in perceived time. An elephant cannot even ’see’ things that move too fast, while insects are able to make multiple observations, calculations, and adjustments to their flight patters before we can see where they are going.

and not only is our perception of time possibly only one part of a much larger spectrum, so might our scale. what if quarks were made up of super-clusters of smaller galaxies? if there were life on any planets in any of those galaxies, there would certainly be no way to communicate, much less detect each others’ presence.

]]> By: Roger P http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2144 Roger P Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:04:44 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2144 Yes. Yes.

]]> By: Jeff http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2143 Jeff Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:01:54 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2143 This also brings up the possibility of intelligent life communicating extraordinarily slowly. A small delay introduced into a human voice conversation immediately introduces confusion, and the thought of communicating over the reaches of interstellar space leaves us contemplating whether or not communication is even possible. How do you speak to someone when it takes 200 years for your message to arrive? A sufficiently advanced life form may have effectively achieved immortality - imagine an advanced computer, processing information over the course of millions of years, in the form of an interstellar dust cloud or what have you. The incredible distances involved in interstellar space aren't nearly as daunting if you have all the time patience that you need to communicate. Maybe each star in the sky is communicating with other stars - if we were to think of it in terms of a human vocal conversation, then perhaps each star only says a word every 500 years. When you're speaking that slowly, it doesn't matter at all that your voice takes 20 years to reach the person you're speaking to. It seems quite terracentric to me to assume that other forms of intelligence will experience time (and lifetimes) in even a remotely similar fashion to us. I like your post though - this whole issue of temporal compatibility is an interesting one. This also brings up the possibility of intelligent life communicating extraordinarily slowly.

A small delay introduced into a human voice conversation immediately introduces confusion, and the thought of communicating over the reaches of interstellar space leaves us contemplating whether or not communication is even possible. How do you speak to someone when it takes 200 years for your message to arrive?

A sufficiently advanced life form may have effectively achieved immortality - imagine an advanced computer, processing information over the course of millions of years, in the form of an interstellar dust cloud or what have you.

The incredible distances involved in interstellar space aren’t nearly as daunting if you have all the time patience that you need to communicate. Maybe each star in the sky is communicating with other stars - if we were to think of it in terms of a human vocal conversation, then perhaps each star only says a word every 500 years. When you’re speaking that slowly, it doesn’t matter at all that your voice takes 20 years to reach the person you’re speaking to.

It seems quite terracentric to me to assume that other forms of intelligence will experience time (and lifetimes) in even a remotely similar fashion to us.

I like your post though - this whole issue of temporal compatibility is an interesting one.

]]> By: Steve Geluso http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2142 Steve Geluso Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:00:45 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2142 I love this. What a wonderful train of thought. Speaking of which, I imagine any super advanced beings' thought trains run impeccably on time. I love this. What a wonderful train of thought. Speaking of which, I imagine any super advanced beings’ thought trains run impeccably on time.

]]> By: Sanity For Sale http://michaelgr.com/2008/04/13/on-the-nature-of-time-implications-for-advanced-intelligence-and-seti/#comment-2141 Sanity For Sale Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:58:34 +0000 http://michaelgr.wordpress.com/?p=254#comment-2141 interesting thought. could be quite funny. I can see this now: 2156 - Galactic News Service: Human beings ('earth' variety) have at last made it to their first planet with life apart from their own. Unfortunately the civilization they have encountered is so far advanced both technologically and evolutionary that they can't see anything happen. To the poor humans it all looks like a big blur. One Human was reported to have said "we are disappointed that after traveling all this way we have come across a life form which is inferior to us" once again proving the idiocy of mankind and the perpetuation of the cosmic giggle. interesting thought. could be quite funny. I can see this now:

2156 - Galactic News Service:

Human beings (’earth’ variety) have at last made it to their first planet with life apart from their own. Unfortunately the civilization they have encountered is so far advanced both technologically and evolutionary that they can’t see anything happen. To the poor humans it all looks like a big blur. One Human was reported to have said “we are disappointed that after traveling all this way we have come across a life form which is inferior to us” once again proving the idiocy of mankind and the perpetuation of the cosmic giggle.

]]>